Official Luthiers Forum!

My brain hurts. It must be rum time.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Just need to make a related comment, you know how it is....

For you guys who sell commissions please consider this: If you let it be clear that you offer the universe of options sure enough someone is going to take you up on it and you can say hello to scope creep because the instrument may include anything and everything that you ever offered all in one package.... Inlay artists struggle with this often as well....

I've got about a decade of experience as a Luthier albeit baptism by fire in a number of instances so not that long in the game.

But I have over 3 decades in selling, marketing, and most importantly managing and training sales folks who sold some of the largest ticket items on earth.

The mark of a successful sales transaction is when the sales person (like it or not guys and girls if you sell you are at some point selling....) endeavors to sell what they have, now, and not futures. Explain to your boss why you missed quota because you over sold future ideas and the prospect decided to wait for a future model instead....

So be careful how much you offer or someone may just take you up on it.

Interesting discussion on sound ports on the forum at present too. What's most interesting is folks who offer them sell them and folks who don't including f*ctory instruments don't seem to miss a beat not having that feature. Interesting..... An example of folks taking you up on what you offer? Seemingly so. (The sound port comments are not at all addressing merit or not of the ports, just the way that they are marketed and by whom)

DZ I'll bring the Coke....

The quickest way to go out of business , is going into business too soon. NEVER TAKE A COMMISSION THAT TAKES YOU OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE.

Stay with your strong suit.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

If I took that advice, I never would have started the single-cut neckthrough. I'm almost done with it. When finished I'll post pictures. It's a 7 piece laminated neck with a flame maple core, and continuous mango plates front and back, with a continuous padouk accent stripe around the edges.

It's definitely out of my comfort zone, but I knew I would devise a way to pull it off.

Maybe this type of build IS my strong suit, or one of them, and so, though posing a challenge, didn't constitute a dealbreaker?

Anyway, sometimes customers will request you build something you've never made before, but that doesn't mean you should turn it away, particularly if you like a challenge.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

If I only accepted work that I've done before or are comfortable with, then I would be starving because I would turn away every potential customer. For example various Stella restorations I've done.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

actually you both have it correct...

without challenges and their associated learning curves one never has a chance to learn...but there has to be a limit otherwise you will lose your shirt!

the concept of a neck through is bending my mind right now...sure, easy concept if there is NO neck angle...lol...trying to figure out the methodology of just how to pull off making a twin sister to my white '85 Jackson Rhoads string through yet in black...and the dratted neck angle is what is bugging me...best I can logic it will be careful carving of the neck and using a router for planing the body flat while retaining the proper relative neck angle...

either way, challenges are good...and just what is comfort anyways? I wasn't comfortable in the least bit the first time I sprayed a project, but I had no choice as I could find no painter to do it for me...now after having sprayed around 100 gallons of lacquer over the years I do feel comfortable with the stuff (well, as comfortable as a person can be dealing with a toxic inflammable product)

I think in the whisperer's case he is referring to Research and Development where of course you pay to learn with the hopes of making a profit in the future

as far as the original question of this thread...well, look guys (and I'll get into a big argument with details and such if there are naysayers) woods DO make a difference in an electric guitar...and that is only one reason for a luthier built electric...plenty of other factors to be considered...in the big picture if you have a customer that wants a one of and they are willing to pay, why not? probably not many of you are aware of the fact that Slash's (Guns and Roses) Les Paul he used on their first album was a luthier built copy...

I thought big name musicians would never consider a commission because big factories give them free products anyways, and they're probably contractually prohibited from playing anything other than that factory's guitar. If a luthier built a Les Paul copy that looks exactly like a Les Paul, Gibson would sue them.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/T ... aul?page=1

interesting read...

copies/forgeries/etc. are a touchy legal subject indeed...I'm pretty sure I could make whatever I wanted as long as it was for me...in the case of Slash in particular think of all the advertising that got shot Gibson's way for instruments they actually didn't make!

in the case of respected luthiers they are copying/forging not counterfeiting...their customers of course know exactly what they are getting and choose that route for whatever reason

Well, even if a customer requested me to build an exact Martin/Taylor/Gibson copy and knows what they're getting (perhaps they want something that says the brand but much better than the company could make) I still wouldn't do it. When the company starts defending their brand, they're not going to go after the customer, they're going to go after whoever made it. I don't think any clients can pay me enough for all the legal fees I would need if something like this happened.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

There is middle ground here and although I agree with John my bet is that he will agree with the following.

Even if it's something that you have not done prior we all have lots of skills that may be very related. For example I've never bent African Blackwood but I have bent ebony, BRW, figured hog, walnut, and other woods. I can read.... and can see what others say about bending African Blackwood and as such I believe in advance that I could pull it off with no issues. Just like Chuck and the neck.

This is not what I think that John means. What I suspect that he may mean by comfort zone is don't do a commission for something that you have never done anything even closely related to prior.

Tai Fu I would personally prefer to starve than to risk customer property because I need money. Not trying to be a jerk here but my business ethics tell me that my own financial situation should in no way, ever, create additional risk for a client and their property. That's one of the problems in the Lutherie repair business in that there are some folks who see their value proposition as including never turning work away even if they lack the experience and/or do not know their own limitations.

I turned away a job yesterday via email because of something very subtile that the client said in their email. I knew that they could do better for what specifically was most important to them so I referred them to someone who specializes in what they wanted. Did I lose a deal? Maybe but I also did not create liability for my company, risk having to pay for a damaged instrument, hurt my reputation, or worst of all damage the precious property of others. By the way the client thanked me, complimented me on the honesty, and told me that they will be calling me in the future about other work.

Good repair folks turn away work frequently and there are other reasons for this as well such as wanting to do more of what we do best and profit from the most and less of what is frequently problematic and we lose our arse on.

But at the end of the day my personal financial situation would never entitle me to risk the property of others because I want to eat or what ever. If I found myself in that situation which has to suck I am sure I would consider a different line of work.

Hello all. This is a really interesting topic to me. I really appreciate where everyone is coming from with their opinions, feelings, etc. I think it goes more to our differing personality type than anything.

A little background on myself. I know BORING! Since my days in college I have been self employed non stop for all but 365 days. 34 out of 35 years. My first and only working for the man job was as a still photographer working in a commercial studio shooting to layout. For books and advertisements.

The owner of that studio starting shooting commercials and shortly thereafter I left and became a freelancer in the film biz. I had a natural affinity to working in special effects. I was 23 years old and every job I took was very risky, many times no one knew how to do it. I would simply start visualizing the end result and working it through in my mind backwards and creating it. There was sculpting, machine building, coordination with other specialists so it could be shot. I had a pretty good background for creating things and had a pretty broad skillset, but this job necessitated learning a myriad of skills that I had never done before. All of this work was to a very strict deadline. It required a calm mindset to persevere. This was before the internet, before digital imaging, this was shooting on film. This was creative craft shared with other specialists to a desired end.

As I became more well known and more successful I began to travel about working for production companies around the country and eventually to other countries as well. In time the production companies and directors began realizing I had a great deal of visual knowledge and aesthetic ingenuity and eventually I did less FX and more art direction and production design. Again here I ended up working on really challenging projects that others shied away from.

About 10 years ago I started phasing out the film biz, the digital age brought in lesser talent IMO and I had tired with traveling. My wife and I expanded her interior design business into more of a custom furniture and cabinetry business and that has also taken on a similarly nuanced cutting edge, working with the unknown personality. Bottom line is my personality seeks work that I have never done before and I have a long history of being able to get out of the box and deliver the end result. Many people will become worried or stressed by a situation like this and will seek a surer route. Nothing wrong with that.

It is funny this thread popped up this week as 2 people who own my acoustics inquired into solid body electrics which I have always intended to build someday. Neither wants anything that currently exists. To me it is about the "challenge", and my clients know I am that type of artist, whatever the craft may be.

Happy building.

Tim

So in what circumstance would you turn away work, when is it "out of my comfort zone"? I have taken neck reset jobs even though I've never done a neck reset before, but my experience in building guitars do teach me just enough that the job went very well. Hell I fixed a mandolin that most other luthiers would turn away immediately and it turned out well, and he thanked me for having fixed it because mandolins are not easy to find in Taiwan. I guess confidence comes into play too because I'm fairly confident in nearly every aspect of guitar repair, even in areas that I have limited experience in. I can read, find out what others would do to fix the problem, etc.. I did a neck reset solely based on what I read from frets.com which is a great resource and it went without a hitch. Now if I just turned away neck resets solely because I have never done it before, then I should just quit. I mean I do take a risk but sometimes you need to take a risk in order to get ahead. There's calculated risk and there's stupid risk. I might pause if the job is totally out of my league (requires substantial investments in equipment, etc.) or I have absolutely no confidence in it, then I will turn it down. One time I practically talked a customer out of an extensive modification of his Ibanez RG simply because it just seems foolish. He wanted me put a quilted maple top on a solid body guitar that had none. I said I can do it, and I am confident in it, but the question I asked him is if it's even worth it. In the end he just had me make a wooden pickguard and de-gloss the body (he didn't like the high gloss of the original finish) which was easier for me and his wallet.

If I turned down every job I never had experience for, then I would never have learned how to do a neck reset, or how to fit a joint properly. Yes it's a risk to do that but you learn a lot by taking that risk. Even if you somehow fail the job, you still learn something albeit you have to pay tuition...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I think it's important to note that in a lot of cases it's not just you paying tuition... if you screw up a customer's guitar they're paying your tuition too and you could end up paying much more in lost reputation than in dollars. That does not make for a happy customer or a successful luthier. Lord knows I've done some wild modifications to factory guitars, but I never accepted a job on a customer's guitar that I hadn't already done successfully on a spec guitar or one of my own. If you want to take risks but want to protect yourself I think that's a pretty reasonable investment to make.

Tai Fu I would never learn to do neck resets on a customer instrument.... That's what beaters are for, cheap, ebay specials with dovetail neck joints or what Lutherie schools are for - not client instruments....

There is also the question of professional standards. Doing a neck reset and doing one perfectly with a perfectly fit heel (no fillers....) and the proper neck angle, addressing the fret plane afterwards (resets should always have at least a fret dress, often a board level and refret) and with NO finish flaws, witness lines, etc. Doing neck resets also means that if you break the heel off or crack it you are rebuilding it, refinishing, etc. until it's perfect.

Don't get me wrong I don't care what anyone else does, that's up to you. But I am telling folks that my own sense of business ethics prohibits me from expanding my own learning curve with someone else's property unless, like Tim and his great example, I believe that I can deal with it my related skill sets. And I do many repairs that are not exactly something that I have done before but I know the theory, I have the tools and understand the method, have experience in something related and things usually go fine. I'm also careful, very careful and in addition if you have not noticed I hold the property of others in very high regard - often higher than the person that it belongs to......

The repair guy who sticks his chest out and proclaims to the world that he/she can fix it all no matter what is either 1) very, very talented, experienced, confident, and may pull it off or 2) going to find themselves hauled before the man/woman in small claims court (or worse...) defending against a judgement that will cost you money, time, reputation, and in the Internet age future business as well or 3) someone who knows that there are risks, has elected to do what ever it takes in the client's best interest including declining on a job, and will live to work another day or 4) a hack who does not value the property of others, has dissatisfied customers, gives the industry a bad rap, and ultimately will fail financially too because of that bad reputation.

So Tai Fu there is middle ground in that there are lots if not most repair jobs that most have done many times prior. These things are often the more profitable, bread and butter, stuff such as set-ups, fret work, bridge reglues, pup swaps, pot replacements etc. If someone brought an Ibanez to me for a retop I would decline - that's not what we do and seems like a very stupid request as well fraught with potential risk. It also includes a refinish as well and here in the states it might be a job that was priced far beyond what it would cost to buy another, new instrument.

You may not be all that concerned about having to explain to a client why you failed which can mean damaging their property but this is something that our business would consider the very worst possible outcome and no place that we wish to be, ever. As for me when I pay my tuition I'm sure to do so with no risk ever to the property of others.

Lastly know in advance that some folks will prey on the inexperienced be they new guitar commission clients or repair clients. That request for a nine string, hot pink, three horn, 8 pup, harp guitar that you received via an email from Nigeria may not be because someone thinks that your pics that you posted on this forum are special. They may see you as a mark.

Funny thing too, when I decline on a repair job it's not unusual to have the client say to me that another shop or shops have already declined....

So again you don't have to be everything to everybody and if you believe that you do ultimately you may find yourself so embattled by basket-case jobs or the commission from hell that you become nothing to anyone.

Well I had this one customer who had an Eastman and insisted on factory original bridge. I'm not too inclined to take him seriously especially when I demonstrated to him how the work was done and he still thinks a factory original is better than me making one from rosewood or ebony based on the original. For the amount the repair would have cost I decided it's not worth it to pursue it further... never heard back from him since.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I remember the Eastman bridge thread Tai Fu and that was the thread where I believe that I suggested that we should never, never let anyone else including clients tell us how to do our jobs.

I take full responsibility (and blame if it comes to that) for my own work. As such I'm doing the work my way or not at all.

So what's this thread about anyway?

what kind of rum?

Badardi 151 of course!

More of a Gosling's man myself !

wood options
fret board radius options
scale length options
electronics options
fret size options
hand wound pick up options
control options
artistic options

options, options, options, options, options, options,

it's all about getting something that isn't an assembly of warmoth parts. the player can get what they want. they can say "this guitar was hand made for me"

it's easy to understand.